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Undertale Ambiguous Gender Stamp by Dragonfly764 Undertale Ambiguous Gender Stamp by Dragonfly764
I've seen some people claiming that Frisk from undertale is absolutely 'non-binary' because they are called 'they' in-game.
They can be used as a pronoun for a person that you don't know the gender of, and I feel that declaring the character as definitely non-binary rather than ambiguous is reading too deeply into the 'issue.'

Especially when a good tool in storytelling is to leave things up to the reader/watcher/player's imagination, letting them draw their own conclusions, which I think is done pretty well in Undertale.
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:iconcreeperreaper47:
CreeperReaper47 Featured By Owner Jul 15, 2017  Student Traditional Artist
hhhhhhhhhhhhhthisisriskybutimjustgonnagoforitihEADCANONFRISKASGENDERFLUIDPLEASEDON'THURTME;-;
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Jul 16, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Huhuhu why'd there be any problem with that? :P
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:iconcreeperreaper47:
CreeperReaper47 Featured By Owner Jul 16, 2017  Student Traditional Artist
Some people are kinda scary ;-;
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:iconmotoneko:
MotoNeko Featured By Owner Jun 25, 2017
That's exactly what it is.

It's called common sense. Okay it's also called confirmed because TonyFox pretty much stated this in a non-doublemeaning way ó.0
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:iconfullmetal0thunder:
Fullmetal0Thunder Featured By Owner Apr 21, 2017  Professional Filmographer
I sometimes see Frisk as female, but I do support male Frisk too. I actually kind of wanted to make stamps for both, but controversy will probably rear its ugly head, like always.
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:iconedithel:
Edithel Featured By Owner Mar 15, 2017
my frisk is just a sane child
that is, until I do genocide :)
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:iconsrbarker:
srbarker Featured By Owner Jan 21, 2017  Hobbyist Artist
I headcanon Frisk as being a demigirl, hence the they/them pronouns.
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:iconreddhampir:
RedDhampir Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2017
Noice ;p My frisk (And chara tbh) is a boy 
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:icongalefeather:
Galefeather Featured By Owner Jan 7, 2017  Student General Artist
I assumed Frisk was a girl before I learned about Frisk being ambiguously gendered, and still mostly see Frisk as a girl (I just can't picture Frisk as a guy in my head, or tall, I don't know why), but refer to Frisk mostly as "them" to avoid conflict.
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:iconfullmetal0thunder:
Fullmetal0Thunder Featured By Owner Apr 21, 2017  Professional Filmographer
It's probably because of their similarities to Chara. People see Chara as being more feminine than Frisk, yet the resemblance makes Frisk just as feminine somehow. I honestly don't know how that works? But... okay. I can understand why.

I honestly consider Frisk genderfluid.
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:iconlymmle:
Lymmle Featured By Owner Mar 1, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Opposite, I first thought that Frisk was a boy with long hair XD

Now, I don't really for Frisk being a boy or girl, :>
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:iconmislamicpearl:
MislamicPearl Featured By Owner Jan 30, 2017  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Saaaaaame. I totally thought Frisk was a girl in the beginning. Even with the they/them pronouns being used I didn't know it was meant to be ambiguous or that people took it to mean Frisk is canonically non-binary. I just can't see her as a boy, especially with all the fan comics I've read, where even when the artists intended them to look gender-neutral they still looked more girly than boyish to me and the personality given to them always seemed to fit more with a girl than a boy. Plus there's also that the story of Undertale reminds me a lot of stuff like Alice in Wonderland, Coraline, and Spirited Away, all of which have girl protagonists.

And yeah I used to use they/them just to avoid conflict as well, but then I decided "man if people really care enough to argue with me about pronouns then they're not people really worth hiding from or arguing with". So I just use she/her (I do sometimes still lasp back to they/them just because I'm used to it sometimes). And actually, no one really ever gave me grief about it - so I guess people stopped caring as much? (Which is a good sign).
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:iconthekatlady123:
Thekatlady123 Featured By Owner Jan 2, 2017
I see them as female but most of the time I just refer frisk as them/they because am afraid to offend people . But this is very true .
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:iconkossmospools:
Kossmospools Featured By Owner Dec 23, 2016   Digital Artist
True to the fucking word!
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:iconwho-said-u-could-die:
Who-Said-U-Could-Die Featured By Owner Dec 12, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I see Frisk as both male and female depending on my mood.
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:iconfellsans:
fellSans Featured By Owner Dec 6, 2016  Hobbyist Writer
I went to scroll through the comments and have realized how many people are getting all keyboard warrior on this shit. Y'all need to chill. 
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:iconunofficial-moonman:
Unofficial-MoonMan Featured By Owner Nov 7, 2016
The fact that so many people are trying to debate whenever or not a fictional child has a penis or not is fucking mindblowing!
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:iconinky-shade:
Inky-Shade Featured By Owner Nov 4, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Frisk is an unisex name in my opinion and Frisk's design fits for both genders so yes, it's entirely up to the player :nod:
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:iconegraut:
egraut Featured By Owner Oct 31, 2016
did i just enter a library cos dam these comments kaomoji set 1 9/19 

but ya i saw this stamp a long time ago and i agree <3
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:icondestinymason:
DestinyMason Featured By Owner Oct 16, 2016
using!
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:iconshunokii:
shunokii Featured By Owner Oct 13, 2016  Professional General Artist
i always thought frisk was a boy, and thats the way its gonna stay in my opinion :v
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:iconreal-bible-stamps:
real-bible-stamps Featured By Owner Oct 2, 2016

frisk is one of the only nonbinary they/them protagonists that exist in media. nonbinary genders are not meant to be filled in or projected on, and doing so is nonbinary erasure

what people don't get though is that you can headcanon frisk as other nonbinary identities, like demigirl, genderfluid, bigender, etc.! you can headcanon them as afab or amab too

so if you headcanon frisk as an afab demigirl who uses they/them and she/her, it's not nonbinary erasure, and you still get everything you want out of "frisk being a girl"

"they/them doesn't automatically make someone non-binary" erases absolutely all nonbinary characters in media, and i wish more people would be nonbinary inclusive because you can still get what you want out of them being a "girl/boy" + keep them nonbinary

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:iconthe-guy-you-hate:
the-guy-you-hate Featured By Owner Jun 16, 2017  Professional General Artist
This is the dumbest shit I ever read.

By this logic, saying I don't like a gay shipping means I'm homophobic. Get your head out of your ass, you non-binary worshiping scum.
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:iconkoiko-destol:
Koiko-Destol Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
'frisk is one of the only non-binary protagonists' because no one knows non-binary out of tumblr lmao. 
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:iconazure-heir:
Azure-Heir Featured By Owner Oct 5, 2016  Hobbyist Filmographer
This is literally copy and pasted from the comment you left on my stamp about this.

Anyway, the use of They/Them pronouns for Frisk/Chara is because Toby Fox (the creator) doesn't know what gender the player is, and rewriting an entire games text just to use certian pronouns takes a longer time then you would think. Using They/Them in this context means you are not sure of Frisk's/Chara's gender, and thus it is up to the player
If They/Them is used like it is for the character Smokey Quartz from Steven Universe, then it is canon non-binary.
It all depends on how they/them is used and what media is used to prove if a character is canon as nb.
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Edited Oct 3, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
"frisk is one of the only nonbinary they/them protagonists that exist in media."

Can you prove this?

"nonbinary genders are not meant to be filled in or projected on, and doing so is nonbinary erasure"

Sure non binary genders aren't meant to be filled in on. Frisk is not specified as non-binary though.


"what people don't get though is that you can headcanon frisk as other nonbinary identities, like demigirl, genderfluid, bigender, etc.! you can headcanon them as afab or amab too

so if you headcanon frisk as an afab demigirl who uses they/them and she/her, it's not nonbinary erasure, and you still get everything you want out of "frisk being a girl""

You kind of lost me 2/3rds of the way in. Are you saying... people viewing frisk as a girl is a valid option anyway? Because... that was my point in the first place if that's what you're saying.

""they/them doesn't automatically make someone non-binary" erases absolutely all nonbinary characters in media,"

No it doesn't. Any character referring to another character as like, they/them is more likely to mean they don't know their gender than they are non-binary.

"and i wish more people would be nonbinary inclusive because you can still get what you want out of them being a "girl/boy" + keep them nonbinary"

I think the idea that you're not "inclusive" because you don't put non-binary characters into your work of fiction is nonsense. Last time I looked, you don't need to have a character share your exact gender identity to relate to that character.

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:iconreal-bible-stamps:
real-bible-stamps Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2016
look at the thousands of female and male protagonists in media. now you tell me of any nonbinary characters you know.
there's my proof

the only reason i can think of that people want frisk to be a "girl" is because they want this small child to have a vagina, tits, and look "girly". you can still respect frisk as a nonbinary character while making them "girly"

if you say "it just means they don't know their gender" when a character is referred to by they/them, then that erases all nonbinary characters. like it literally doesn't give any nonbinary character a chance to exist, i'll make a character that's talked about with they/them pronouns but readers will just say "we just don't know their gender"

i meant that sentence in the sense of i wish people would keep frisk/chara/etc. nonbinary, although i do wish people would write more nonbinary characters and that people wouldn't find every single excuse to erase what few nonbinary characters exist in media. i can count on my hands all the nonbinary characters i know in media: frisk, chara, monster kid, napstablook, and sketchbook from don't hug me i'm scared, that's it and that's all i know of. let us nonbinary people have our characters, you have thousands of male and female characters, stop erasing what pitiful handful of characters we can get. imagine if you were female and no female characters existed in media, there's only males, and someone said "Last time I looked, you don't need to have a character share your exact gender identity to relate to that character." 
let us exist
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:iconquitt3r:
QUITT3R Featured By Owner Oct 9, 2016
So basically, your non-binary, right? You want to have your characters. That's cool. But it just seems you want them to perhaps, relate to you?
I don't really know, but you kinda seems hypocritical. (By the way, this is not meant to be rude, I know I have to specify it for you.)
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:iconreal-bible-stamps:
real-bible-stamps Featured By Owner Oct 10, 2016
Nah, I'm a cis female my dude.
And you can relate to a character no matter the gender.
Also, thanks for assuming I can't take criticism, real nice. 
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:iconquitt3r:
QUITT3R Featured By Owner Oct 11, 2016
It's obvious you can take it, because you keep fighting about the silliest of things.
And someone else said you can relate to the character no matter the gender.
And then you made an irreverent argument.
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Edited Oct 4, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
"look at the thousands of female and male protagonists in media. now you tell me of any nonbinary characters you know.
there's my proof"

This is still not proof that Frisk is canon non-binary

"the only reason i can think of that people want frisk to be a "girl" is because they want this small child to have a vagina, tits, and look "girly". you can still respect frisk as a nonbinary character while making them "girly""

Or, it's just that they see Frisk as a girl. Which is just as valid as seeing Frisk as non-binary because of the ambiguity.

"if you say "it just means they don't know their gender" when a character is referred to by they/them, then that erases all nonbinary characters. like it literally doesn't give any nonbinary character a chance to exist, i'll make a character that's talked about with they/them pronouns but readers will just say "we just don't know their gender""

Then specify the character as non-binary. Otherwise the more reasonable assumption is that their gender is ambiguous

"i meant that sentence in the sense of i wish people would keep frisk/chara/etc. nonbinary, although i do wish people would write more nonbinary characters and that people wouldn't find every single excuse to erase what few nonbinary characters exist in media. i can count on my hands all the nonbinary characters i know in media: frisk, chara, monster kid, napstablook, and sketchbook from don't hug me i'm scared, that's it and that's all i know of."

Then you don't know any non-binary characters in that case. None of those characters are specified to be non-binary, (unless you count paper as non binary) it's something you've superimposed over them, like a christian superimposing God over the things we haven't come up with a scientific explination for. 'Non-binary of the gaps 'in a sense.

"let us nonbinary people have our characters,"

Make some then. Don't go declaring other people's interlectual property as canon X unless the creator has confirmed it. It's not yours, it's Toby who gets to decide.

"you have thousands of male and female characters,"

I don't care about gender.

"stop erasing what pitiful handful of characters we can get."

Stop accusing me of things I haven't done.

"imagine if you were female and no female characters existed in media,"

Irrelevent. Gender is meaningless to me, I could very easily enjoy a work of fiction with genderless robots as the focus.

I have autism, and I'm bi however the small amount of confirmed autistic characters or bi characters means nothing to me because those traits by themselves are boring and add nothing to a story.

""Last time I looked, you don't need to have a character share your exact gender identity to relate to that character.""

I still agree with that excellent thing I said in that scenario too.

"let us exist"

You are a person. Not a fictional character.

The only people that I've actually seen that don't want you to exist, is the religious right, and some of the more extreme Alt-right.
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:iconreal-bible-stamps:
real-bible-stamps Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2016
imgur.com/gallery/S2zhz my final toss in to the debate
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
It's be a bit difficult to keep the ambiguity if characters didn't refer to Frisk with 'they' wouldn't it?


From the link -"The only thing y'all can pull up is this interview where he skips the question asking about Frisk's gender"

Which still leaves ambiguity. Where ther is no answer, there is ambiguity.


From the link -"This is Toby avoiding the question because so many hateful people in this world hate nonbinary trans folk"

This is superimposing the idea that he's answering for  that reason onto him. The reason he answered that way is ambiguous and unknown.


From the link - "If he gave the """confirmation""" Frisk was nonbinary y'all would shit yourselves about how it's unfair and Toby could actually literally be put in danger from that confirmation."

Hold on, let me correct that statement

"If he gave the confirmation Frisk was nonbinary y'all would shit yourselves about how it's unfair and Toby could actually literally be put in danger from that confirmation."

If he gave the confirmation, then he'd have given the confirmation, and you'd be correct in saying the character is canon non-binary. But the fact is, he hasn't, so you're wrong in saying Frisk is canon non-binary. And assuming that he hasn't confirmed it because he would get backlash is just that: a baseless assumption. It's like saying 'Toriel is pedophile and Toby just won't confirm it because he'd get backlash!'


From the link -"Respect his position to not be the head of nonbinary politics and don't take this as an excuse for "Frisk can be whatever gender I want.""

Actually no, this is you people not respecting his position to not be the head of non-binary politics, trying to superimpose some position onto him, that he hasn't even agreed to. We're just telling you to stop, and to stop thinking you're some sort of authority on his interlectual property.


From the link -"he refers to Frisk as androgynous (ctrl + f "androgynous" to see it). Androgynous was slang for nonbinary a few years ago. This statement of Frisk being androgynous can be subjective,"

This is correct, (Except replace "can" with "is") however, after the word 'subjective', it's purely speculation and guesswork on the part of the poster, and thus, confirms nothing.

"but when you're in a community as vile as the gaming community and say one of your characters are trans, let alone a "special snowflake gender" nonbinary trans, you will recieve immediate backlash and could put yourself in danger. Androgynous is a safe way to say nonbinary, because the people that would want to harass you instead can comfortably think "Oh, that character can still be a girl or boy, nice.""

Speculation. ^ Nothing confirmed still


From the link -"If you accept that Chara is nonbinary"

I don't


From the link -"If you accept that Chara is nonbinary and uses they/them but still want to argue that the protagonist, Frisk, a character in the same game that's also referred to with they/them, is not nonbinary as well, then you hate nonbinary folk and are incredibly dense."

I think a person who argues that way is being silly (As there is no proof for either of them being non-binary), but there's no reason to say they hate non-binary people because of that. Just that they're illogical


From the link -"Look at all the female and male protagonists and characters you see in games, shows, stories."

Irellevant


From the link -" Now try to count how many nonbinary characters you know of."

Irellevant


From the link -"I have Frisk, Chara, and Steven Universe's Stevonnie. That's all."

Stevonnie is a fusion between a male and female, so it's reasonable to assume Stevonnie would be a hermaphrodite.

Frisk and Chara however, are still ambiguous as there is no evidence for any confirmed gender.


From the link -"Don't take them away from us."

We're not trying to take anything away from you. You are trying to take OTHER people's interlectual property for your idiology.



Next part of the link is presumably something you copy and pasted for one of your previous comments here, which I've already responded to


From the link -"Frisk is not meant for you to project on. You are not Frisk. Frisk is their own person. That's the joke that's the whole point"

Then stop projecting something onto Frisk as canon when you have no proof, maybe???


From the link -"Thank you for letting us nonbinary folk have a sliver of representation in media!"

Oops! Looks like you don't have any in undertale! gg


From the link -"and you better get used to it now because in the next 10 years I assure you there'll be plenty more nonbinary characters you'll HAVE to acknowledge."

The word 'more' here is erroneous, let me fix that

"and you better get used to it now because in the next 10 years I assure you there'll be plenty of nonbinary characters you'll HAVE to acknowledge."

If a character actually is non-binary than the character is non-binary. I have no issue with acknowledging them if that's the case.
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:iconreal-bible-stamps:
real-bible-stamps Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2016
idc about the rest of your argument on how you don't accept frisk as nb but why don't you accept chara as nonbinary when asriel literally uses they/them for chara, that can't be argued with
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Oct 4, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Yes it can.

they
ðeɪ/
pronoun
pronoun: they
  1. 1.
    used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified.
    "the two men could get life sentences if they are convicted"
    • people in general.
      "the rest, as they say, is history"
    • informal
      people in authority regarded collectively.
      "they cut my water off"
  2. 2.
    used to refer to a person of unspecified sex.
    "ask a friend if they could help"
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(1 Reply)
:iconmiko-the-fox:
Miko-The-Fox Featured By Owner Edited Sep 25, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Me:
Frisk=boy
Chara=girl



*POSTS AND RUNS BECAUSE I KNWO THAT SHIT COULD GO DOWN*
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:iconkittenkat678:
KittenKAT678 Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2016  Hobbyist
same
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:iconmiko-the-fox:
Miko-The-Fox Featured By Owner Nov 25, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
exactly
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:iconyu-gen:
YU-GEN Featured By Owner Sep 16, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
i thought frisk was a boy when i saw them ;;
i was so confused when people said he was actually a "they"
i might use this, since i got bashed once by someone who saw him as a she ,,
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:iconmadamecringe:
MadameCringe Featured By Owner Sep 2, 2016
Using.
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:iconbokkathfoxrabbit:
BokkaTHfoxrabbit Featured By Owner Sep 1, 2016
I thought Frisk was a girl when I first saw them.
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:iconjackaltheace:
JackalTheAce Featured By Owner Aug 30, 2016  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you. -_- I don't know how many times i've heard "FRISK IS NOT A GIRL" like, geez, mate, it's up to le player.
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:icondog2222222222222222:
dog2222222222222222 Featured By Owner Aug 28, 2016  Professional General Artist
Did you just assume my gender
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Aug 29, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I-I'M SORRY ;0;

:iconcryforeverplz:
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:iconspiderpuppets:
SpiderPuppets Featured By Owner Aug 26, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Someone draws Frisk as female: Totally fine. That's how you see them/her.

Someone draws Frisk as male: Totally fine. That's how you see them/him.

Someone says Frisk is a boy/girl in their mind: Totally fine. That's how you see him/her.

Someone says Frisk is a nonbinary/genderfluid in their mind: Totally fine. That's how you see them/him/her.

Someone who bullies someone because their version of Frisk isn't the same as their own: im smyling :) but inside im dying ;(
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:iconsupercoco142:
Supercoco142 Featured By Owner Aug 26, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
someone LITERALLY bashed a girl for calling Firsk a She and saying "FIRSK'S GENDER I UP TO THE PLAYER" which was what the person was doing in the first place.
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:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Aug 26, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Bluh there's no need for physical assault over any of this
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:iconsupercoco142:
Supercoco142 Featured By Owner Aug 26, 2016  Hobbyist Digital Artist
I know
Reply
:iconluciferianqueen:
LuciferianQueen Featured By Owner Aug 19, 2016  Student Digital Artist
I am genderfluid and gender/orientation erasure is so stupid!
Reply
:icondragonfly764:
Dragonfly764 Featured By Owner Aug 20, 2016  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Can you define erasure in this context?
Reply
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